ESG in Action: Hospitality and sustainability working together for future successes

Charlie Fisher (00:02)

Sustainability can't sit off the side. It has to be part of that everyday decision making. When you look at ESG through more of a business lens, that tension that you reference between commercial priorities and sustainability, I think, becomes smaller.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (00:45)

Welcome to ESG in Action. I’m Alex Holsgrove Jones, Knowledge partner and ESG lead for TLT, and we’re exploring how values-driven leadership, sustainable thinking and inclusive culture are transforming the business landscape. Each episode, I’m joined by a guest who drives ESG progress – from charity leaders to household brands – and they’ll be sharing the tangible impacts of ESG-led decision making.  

Today I’m joined by Charlie Fisher and Sarah Waddington from Greene King, the country's leading pub retailer and brewer, welcoming customers into 2700 pubs, restaurants and hotels across the UK. Their environment, social, and governance programme, Greene King for Good, encompasses their ambition to care for planet, people and communities, ‘pouring happiness into lives’.  

Charlie is the Sustainability Engagement and Governance Lead, and Sarah is the Estates Lead, a pivotal role in Greene King's senior property team. Welcome to you both. It's so great to have you on the show.

So, before we get into the detail, could you both just tell us a little bit about your background and your current role at Greene King? Sarah, perhaps we can go to you first.  

Sarah Waddington (01:36)

So, I am Estates Lead at Greene King. I am a Chartered Surveyor, and I've been at Greene King nine years next month actually, which is quite incredible. I head up the Estates team in the PP division, so that's our Pub Partners division, and we basically we’re made up of L&T pubs and franchise pubs.

So, in total, we've got circa 1000 pubs in our division and that's made up at the moment of 900 L&T sites and 100 franchise sites. So, my team are the estate managers, so we manage a lot of the property elements of those sites.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (02:15)

Great - and for our listeners L&T is landlord and tenant.

Sarah Waddington (02:18)

Landlord and tenant, yes. I will use as little acronyms as possible, yeah.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (02:23)

Great. And Charlie, what about you?

Charlie Fisher (02:26)

Yeah, I am the Governance and Engagement Lead at Greene King and have only been here two years, so we also need to watch the acronyms for me as well because there are so many that I'm still learning.

But I started in sustainability about 12 years ago I've been in it for quite a while. I started my career in Singapore in a hotel. So still in hospitality, very different but back when sustainability was very much focused on air conditioning and taking shampoo bottles out of hotel rooms and things that really are like the norm now, which I think is quite a good analogy for sustainability to be honest, and a very steep learning curve with a company that was quite progressive and wanted to lead in sustainability in a continent and an industry that hadn't really addressed it.  

And then I moved into sustainability at Amazon. So different, very big, big change in the reporting function. And that's where I kind of had my deep dive into ESG reporting. A very different approach and obviously a very different scale to most companies working for a company of Amazon, but quite an exciting way to kind of see what the force that companies could be and the change that companies could be, something at that scale.

And then I did the classic boomerang back to hospitality, which I think a lot of us do in this industry and came back. And yeah, I've been at Greene King for two years and I sort of have an amalgamation of the two previous roles I had, if you like, and I have the engagement portion, which is sort of driving the change in the business really is my focus. And then the governance piece, which is that heavy reporting, sort of strategic piece within the business as well, so a lot of data collection and writing and things there.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (04:12)

And so if we if we look at the engagement piece, what do you see as your key successes so far, and what challenges are you encountering as the business takes forward its ESG initiatives?

Charlie Fisher (04:26)

I'd say one of our biggest successes has been building that stronger engagement across the business, slowly making sustainability feel relevant to people in very different roles and a lot more accessible, if you like, and relatable. So, we have a more structured governance system now than we did a few years ago. We have better ownership and we have a growing culture, it's very much cultural transformation that this role focuses on.  

And I think that's really what sustainability is anyway, kind of in a bigger picture. But we want a growing culture of accountability, which is a sustainability kind of professional style target to start. We sort of say that sustainability professionals, we don't do the do, you know, we sort of don't go around and separate the recycling out and things like that. It's never going to work if it's just the two of us with sustainability in our title.

I think that for us has been a really great change, something I've been quite proud of over the last few years. Also for Greene King, there's been a shift in the engagement with our suppliers over the last few years, which is quite progressive really in the conversations that we're having and partnering with them in the journey. I think we're all working to very similar goals and targets we're having some strong conversations there, early conversations, parts of very long trajectory changes, but engaging them in areas like carbon reduction or human rights is driving that responsible sourcing, elevating our value chain exercises.  

I'd say challenges is probably centred around scale and the complexity of our business.

As Sarah's alluded to the work that she does, there's another 1,500 pubs in a different model. So there's quite a lot of complexity across Greene King that we have to address. And we're a big operational, historical business with a lot of history as well. So change can be hard when processes have been in place for many years. And sustainability expectations evolve quickly and they're evolving in a fast pace, whether it's just regulations or standards that are changing, or the customer expectations, you like. So staying ahead of those requirements and keeping that engagement with the business along with the changes can be a consistent challenge.  

And then the other challenge I'd probably list, and I'm not going to be very unique or individual here, is saying reporting. Reporting is a challenge, it's very boring. That complexity of our business makes it so difficult and it makes it so challenging and it's quite a new model. Financial reporting has been around for 150 years, hasn't it? Whereas non-financial reporting is still quite new to so many people that we ask to help us out in it. So there's a lot of explaining and understanding why and how it's relevant to them.  

But while it's a challenge, I think we should also reflect that we've had successes in that area and using it to add in optics into measurements of success that we haven't had before is probably a good thing. I think we all have to find bonuses in reporting otherwise we get a bit sad don't we because it's hard.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (07:24)

I think there's so much in that answer, Charlie. I mean, just picking it apart just a teeny bit, there's the cultural transformation that you mentioned. And I guess the challenge for anyone in sustainability is making sure that everyone across their business, no matter what their role, because there are so many different types of roles in a business like Greene King, each owns sustainability. So it's not just done by the sustainability team.

So there's that, there's obviously the challenge of the scale and the complexity and the reporting that you mentioned. There's the supplier engagement, which an organisation like Greene King that has a bit of clout with suppliers can really help snowball the effect because so many organisations use the same suppliers.  

So if one with a little bit more of buying power can use their influence, then it really benefits others, other smaller organisations who don't have that clout. So there is so much in your answer. And those successes and challenges really highlight how ESG is evolving and how it touches every bit of a business. But there can be tension, obviously, between driving commercial results and driving sustainability.

How do you navigate that balance between near-term commercial goals and long-term sustainability?

Charlie Fisher (08:47)

For me, I think you're absolutely right. To the point that you said there is so much. So for me, the key is integration for a start. Sustainability can't sit off the side. It has to be part of that everyday decision making. When you look at ESG through more of a business lens, that tension that you reference between commercial priorities and sustainability, I think, becomes smaller.

I think Greene King's sustainability, we can root it in resilience and relevance and those two words we keep coming back to consistently because it's a shift in the narrative that we're having, isn't it? And that really is changing now.

I think the reality is that sustainable reactions, they do support near time commercial outcomes as well. They certainly do. But sometimes there's almost an apology: ‘I did it because it was saving money. Sorry.’ It was great. It's a win-win and that's the aspect that we need to be looking at.  

But putting it into that foundational decision making so we kind of consider it and we consider that contribution at the same time as strengthening our brand and strengthening the commercial side of things. I think the other thing to that side, going back to the shopping list that we have and things that we can work on, I think it's really relevant in sustainability right now is one quantification, but also prioritisation.

Businesses now need to focus on what's material to us. We can't boil the ocean. I mean, that's a terrible analogy when you're in sustainability because it's getting smaller. But we have to... every business, in whatever concept we're talking about, we have to prioritise, we have to be smart about what we're doing. And that's exactly the same in sustainability as well. We need to reflect on what's material to our business.

We're a pub business, we're an asset business with lots of pubs and so property decarbonisation in Sarah's world and then we serve food and drink. Those are what are material to us and that's what we really need to think about and I think that's what's really important to balance those goals and to now sort of focus on what truly are corporate goals as well as sustainability goals.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (10:49)

Yeah, and it is about having business resilience, but making sure that you're focusing, as you say, on the things that are material to your business's success.  

There are still some people who regard ESG as a bit of a nice to have, rather than business critical. I think all that you've been saying, Charlie, suggests that you're definitely not one of those.  

But for those who may be in that camp, from your perspective, are there any examples of where an ESG policy or consideration has really improved the bottom line to go to that, ‘well, actually, it does make commercial sense and it makes commercial sense now’.

Charlie Fisher (11:28)

I mean, I tend to say that we can't, it looks like a nice to have, but if it's embedded in your business, then it's sort of, there are commercial wins to be reflected on. And I think again, if you're just looking at that short term lens, then potentially that's where you can get a bit sceptical and that's okay.  

When you zoom out, it becomes more good for business and... sorry broken record on the resilient and relevant, but I think they're really important keys to hook back on to because that's what we're looking at. I would say... take energy efficiency as a clean example,  that cuts emissions and it cuts the costs of the businesses as well. It's so important when we're talking to our partners and talking to our operators, et cetera, that we highlight all of those benefits and they actually does exactly the same as waste and minimising waste.

It is a different lens on looking at operational efficiency and remove cutting costs from a business. It's kind of the terminology and the narrative we use to position it in that space, so you're kind of focusing on these areas of, you know, we're removing food waste, which is fantastic and essential for our sustainability goals, but we're also not putting money in the bin.

So that kind of commercial side of things as I think on that resilience side of responsible sourcing is really strong because it's risk mitigation at the end of the day. And it's that business lens that we should be looking at. And we're protecting our value chains and we're protecting our offering down in the future by kind of literally protecting our future. I think it delivers and it strengthens that resilience, but it also enhances reputation and mitigates risk.

So it feeds into all of those areas that aren't nice to have. They’re kind of, they are fundamentals and it's flipping that narrative to look at the fundamental space instead.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (13:22)

Great, thanks Charlie. Now Sarah, just turning to you, I mean you see what tenants face day to day with competing priorities and encouraging adoption will often mean promoting environmental benefits in terms of cost savings. How does Greene King approach this with tenants?

Sarah Waddington (13:38)

So, I mean, tenant engagement is key to our strategy this year. And it's something that is still a bit of a work in progress of how we do that. I think, as you say, the cost pressures for tenants is not dissimilar to everyone in the moment. It's the same in our own lives. As a residential house, we should all have perfectly insulated lofts we should all have solar panels on our roofs and we should all have all of these things.  

But we don't because we are basically trying to pay mortgages and keep fresh food on the table and stuff like that. And it's the same with tenants as well. Like at the moment, running a business, paying rent, paying staff, all of those things, paying these utility costs, they're the things that are the priority at the moment. So finding things and finding money to invest in energy saving initiatives is always quite difficult. So what we're trying to do as a business is there are so many initiatives out there. You can get swamped by them, can't you?  

And so what our priority at the moment is, is we're trying to look at our very diverse L&T estate, landlord and tenant estate. We're trying to look at a very diverse portfolio. And we're looking, we're doing a real test and learn phase at the moment. So we're looking as a business and we're very lucky to have the managed division who've done so much work in this field. So we actually take a lot of their learning, and we're trying to see what works really well and then come up with a package of options which suit different types of businesses and different pubs.  

And then we're going to work as a business to see how we can support our partners getting them into their pubs. So it is something that we have a plan, but we've got to spend the next year to 18 months really doing all our test and learn within L&T. And then we can start rolling it out into our pubs hopefully.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (15:32)

I think that's a really, really important point to make is that there is no one size fits all. You have different types of tenants, different types of businesses, all at different stages in their journey. So, you know, you have to understand them so that you can help them understand the real benefits of sustainable decision making.

Sarah Waddington (15:53)

And I think, so for example, in the managed world, you know, we have some farmhouse inns, which are predominantly sort of new build box units. And they're fantastic when it comes to energy initiatives, because they're very easy to sort of see - they’re the same format. Whereas there's no point, for example, me saying, right, well, let's roll out loft insulation across the whole of L&T, because I can be speaking to someone with like a 12th century vaulted ceiling. And surprisingly, the loft insulation is not going to help them run their business.  

A big thing for our team, my team this year, is building a database so we can start identifying what different tenants have and having those conversations. And then we can start to have a bit of a list of different initiatives we can bring in.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (16:39)

Great. And one of the things that Greene King is also, in its ESG agenda is around benefits for the local communities. So can you share an example of where ESG has created some really tangible benefits for tenants or the local community and maybe what changed in those people's daily lives and how you measured or tracked those improvements?

Sarah Waddington (17:03)

Yeah, I mean, we actually do. We have a lot of sustainability champions in our division. And I've spoke to a lot of these tenants over the years, sort of trying to build up a bit of a picture. And they rave about the benefits that come from it. You've got the obvious, as Charlie mentioned before, in my world, in the property world, there's very tangible cost saving benefits that come. So if you insulate your building properly, your heating bills will come down. That will be a cost saving.

You know, we can measure things like solar, we can measure all these different initiatives. But equally, another thing that came up almost in every conversation I had with tenants who were very advanced in this field was on things like staff retention. So you know, now, especially if you've got sort of a younger workforce, I was talking to one of our tenants recently, and he said the fact that he's run such a sustainable business, his staff retention is incredible. They feel part of a family in that pub. They're really proud to work there. And there is a genuine feeling that comes from that. And when you hear people talk about it, they light up while they're talking about it because everyone's really engaged in it.  

But to Charlie's point before, it's very difficult to measure that. It's hard to sometimes put a business case around that. If you do this to your business, you will retain your staff. That's quite a big statement, especially in an industry that can be quite challenging. So it's hard for us to go, no, it definitely will definitely work. The benefits that we see definitely are that when we have these conversations, there is definitely a connection between those two things. So there are a lot of benefits. And it's just how we get that message out to such a huge portfolio is I think the challenge that we face.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (18:47)

Yeah, because that positive social impact, as you say, it's something that's difficult to pop in a spreadsheet, isn't it? Charlie, do you have any views on how that plays out from your side of things?

Charlie Fisher (19:02)

I mean think we're the same, and in the overarching measuring is a challenge in this space but it's an absolutely integrated part of our sustainability strategy.

So you know, I think environment sometimes can be the the easier one to talk about sometimes, but we have three other pillars within our sustainability strategy that we focus on, and social mobility is one of them, with charity and community. Community is... you know, we have 3,000 communities that we're operating in. The pubs are such a focal point of communities that we're in. And so we have that real kind of responsibility to connect with those and work with those.  

So those three areas are really important within the work that we do. The social mobility program, think, is for me, it's just really exciting. Through our Releasing Potential program, we have recruited prison leavers, we've opened prison academies, but it's also supporting our pipeline and our talent. So it's connected and it's interconnected into the communities that we're working in and then also kind of how we operate as a business.  

And we have strong charity partners that we work with, et cetera, as well. I think that this builds trust, but as you said, Sarah, it really supports recruitment and retention in the businesses that we run and our guest loyalty.  

So there are a number of reasons why this is equally as important and an area of focus for us as well, alongside inclusivity, which is also a pillar for us that's really essential in kind of making sure that everyone feels welcome in the pubs that we operate in.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (20:37)

Yeah, I mean, it just shows that everything needs to be tied together and looked at holistically. You can't look at E, S or G in isolation. And it's really clear that both of you see it as influencing not just how things work today, but the future. With that in mind, looking ahead, what's one ESG related change that you're actively preparing for in your sector?

Charlie Fisher (21:01)

I think the industry as a whole, we all have to focus on our value chain and our supply chain. You know, that I think is integral in... it's not a surprise. Every business is working on their Scope 3. That is the challenge. And we need to look at that value chain and how we work with our suppliers as Greene King and as an industry because to your point earlier, Alex, we've got that lean and we've got that potential for scope of influence across the industry to kind of start making some changes.  

And this is where it is a long-term conversation and it's a long-term space where we're going to see change. So kind of investing in that space where we can see improved data and we can see improved governance around that can help us all to move forward across the value chain.

Scope 3 will be a big challenge for everyone and so that's something we need to focus on. Also, I think it's really about the partnerships that we build and those take time. You know, businesses just as individuals have to invest in those for those to succeed. So supporting our suppliers to help them reduce their emissions in turn will help us and working together on those solutions.  

And I think the second area is, and it leans into the same conversation is that risk mitigation piece. We're seeing it day to day, aren't we? The changes that are happening and they will impact business. This is long term lens as well, but having a more transparent and aligned resilient supply chain will hopefully, wouldn't it be great, reduce those risks in the future and give us that greatest consistency and therefore long-term delivery.

Ultimately that shift will make sustainability performance more measurable as well, when we can start sort of seeing those results. So yeah, I think those are the two areas of focus for us.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (22:48)

Great, and very large areas but I was going to say I don't think that's going to happen in the next few months. Sarah can I just get your thoughts?

Charlie Fisher (22:51)

Yeah, we'll get it done next week!  

Sarah Waddington (23:00)

Yes so for us, looking at it from our division and also in the property world as well, sort of MEES regulations and complying with the MEES regulations. Alex, you and I have spoken many a time on these in the past. But, you know, I really embrace it because as you know, as we've talked about sometimes, because there's so much out there, it's sometimes quite difficult to work out exactly what you're trying to achieve. And then having the MEES regulations and having a set goal that we needed to achieve and what we were working within has made this project quite an easy thing for us to put some goals in place for.

And it's difficult with the, especially with the L&T sector, because a lot of our pubs are big old lofty buildings. So getting EPC ratings up is not always easy, but it is something that we have done incredible work on over the past year. And we continue to, you know, we're obviously all committed to achieving the goals. But it is something that I think as a business, it's just made us focus our lens on these properties. And it's been a really good program and something that I say I'm really proud that we've achieved so far.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (24:08)

Yeah, and those, you know, those feed into the tenant benefits to the tenants. If you get that EPC rating up, then the energy bill is going to come down. Excellent. It's been a really interesting chat so far, but just so that we can leave our listeners with a tangible action they can take away. I'd like to invite you to ask our listeners to do one thing to make the world a more sustainable place. Sarah, are you able to give anybody your top tip?

Sarah Waddington (24:16)

Exactly, yeah.

Sarah Waddington (24:37)

It's just be aware, isn't it? I think this all the time. It is so easy. And I think I've got three young kids and I think about this all the time with them. I just keep being aware of the importance of it and keep talking about it. And because it is otherwise easy to focus on other things, especially with the outside world. And so that's my only advice all the time is just to keep constantly thinking about it. Keep the conversation alive.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (25:03)

Yeah, so yeah, be aware sort of maybe question your purchasing choices and your travel choices because if you are aware, then you can it's easier to take action, isn't it?

Sarah Waddington (25:13)

I was in the gym the other day and my three year old was very cute. She had a little crisp packet and she was like, ‘I'll go and put it in the bin mummy’ and off she went. And you know from just the other side of the cafe she was like, ‘is this decycling’? Like obviously trying to say 'recycling'. I love that, you know, that three-year-olds are saying things like that.

If that gets into someone's conscious, they look at what bin at three they should put their crisp packet in, then it means it is starting to land and that fills me with hope that basically.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (25:47)

That's really lovely to finish on a point of hope. Charlie!

Charlie Fisher (25:52)

I better carry on the theme and be positive! But you know, I'm sort of the same in that I say challenge the norm. Don't be afraid to challenge the norm. And the reason I think this is, I do think... I said when I first started that I started my career in hotels. And the first thing that we did was spend two, three years trying to get mini soap and shampoo bottles out of those hotel rooms. But it's now the norm.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (25:54)

You better, yeah.

Charlie Fisher (26:18)

You know, the challenge came in to get rid of plastic bags in supermarkets and everyone thought the world was going to end and it's now the norm. And so you kind of don't be afraid because the norm is changing, the baseline is changing. Just like Sarah said, my four-year-old did the same. He asked about recycling and that's... the norm has changed. The baseline has moved and so those are happening. So just don't be afraid, I think, to challenge the norm because it can change and we will change because we've got to. But it might take a bit of time.

So if we all keep pushing, then hopefully we'll get there.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (26:50)

Great. Charlie and Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a really interesting and enjoyable chat. It's been great to hear about how Greene King is building ESG into everyday decisions to improve your business, support tenants and really have a positive impact on the communities that you serve. So thank you so much for your time.

Charlie Fisher (27:11)

No problem, thanks for having me. Thank you.

Sarah Waddington (27:12)

Thanks for having us.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (27:14)

And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share. And until next time, keep driving positive change and putting ESG into action.

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