ESG in Action: Inside the Government Legal Department's social mobility agenda

Richard Cornish (00:02)

As we say, actually just starting with small, well-designed actions can really give the organisations the confidence and really make a difference to communities that you're working with.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (00:16)

Welcome to ESG In Action. I'm Alex Holsgrove Jones, Knowledge Partner and ESG Lead for TLT, and we're exploring how values-driven leadership, sustainable thinking and inclusive culture are transforming the business landscape. Each episode, I'm joined by a guest who drives ESG progress, from charity leaders to household brands, and they'll be sharing the tangible impacts of ESG-led decision-making.  

Today, I'm joined by Richard Cornish from the Government Legal Department.

The Government Legal Department, or GLD as we'll call it, is made up of around 3,000 lawyers and provides legal advice to the government on the development, design and implementation of government policies and decisions. Richard is the Director General and Chief Operating Officer at GLD, leading across their legal operations and corporate function.  

At TLT, we've collaborated with GLD across the early careers space, in particular on school outreach, summer diversity programmes and social mobility insight days.

Richard, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you on the show.

Richard Cornish (01:18)

Great. No, it's really, I'm really grateful for the invite, Alex. Thanks.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (01:22)

So, before we delve into what GLD is doing, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and your role?

Richard Cornish (01:29)

Yeah, thanks. I mean, my background is very much across the civil service. I've done a number of different roles over a number of different organisations, but my role here in GLD, when it was formed a couple of years ago, is to really drive the continuous improvement of our kind of professional services that support our legal work. So whether that's HR, finance, communications, et cetera. But what you also mentioned was legal operations earlier, and that's a really growing area for us, you know, experiencing a number of firms as well. And that's where we're looking to kind of optimise our legal processes, bring in new roles such as legal project managers and legal technologists to really help all of our lawyers be as efficient and as effective as they can be to make sure that we're really concentrating our lawyers' time on the work that only they can provide. So that's a big part of my role is enabling that across the organisation.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (02:16)

Wow, sounds like you've got a lot to do there.  

Richard Cornish (02:19)

Yep, keeps me busy.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (02:20)

And across the legal profession, there is a growing recognition that talent is everywhere, but opportunity isn't. And that improving social mobility is really central to building a profession that truly reflects the society that it serves. And there's a lot of focus on breaking down the structural barriers that have been in place for many, many years. So can you tell us about the social mobility programs that GLD runs?

Richard Cornish (02:44)

And it's one point I just say upfront as well, is one of the things we've done over the last few years is really moved from being a very London-centric organisation to having a big footprint around the country. So we've expanded with hundreds of legal roles now in some of the big cities around the UK, which I can sort of say a bit more about later. But that's important because across all of the different schemes we've been running, they're very much kind of spread across the country and not just kind of concentrated in London.  

So we've got three main schemes and we've got the first one, the law sandwich placements. So that offers a 10-month legal placements with students from lower economic social backgrounds, joining us as entry level paralegals across the advisory litigation and employment functions. And that's doubled in the last two years from four placements a couple of years ago to now eight. And the second scheme is a diversity summer scheme. That's our biggest one. So that now has over 550 students last year.

And that's increased by about a hundred from the year before. So it's really continuing to go from strength to strength. And that's based around our four locations in Bristol, Manchester, Leeds and London, and also online. And that's aimed at undergrads and grads from underrepresented groups, often working with panel firms like yourself who support some of the sessions. And then the third really key scheme is the Sutton Trust. And we've been doing that for a while now. And that's a week-long internship in February each year across those locations and online.

We've got about students this year that have just done that a few weeks ago and they're A-level students enrolled on the Sutton Trust Pathways to Law programme. So it's a really, really good kind of and well-established schemes now that we're kind of really, really committed to supporting.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (04:21)

Yeah, and it's great to hear that those schemes are nationwide and therefore not excluding those students who, you know, are not London focused and also the expansion that's been occurring because clearly it's something that you as an organisation are really committed to. But what gaps or challenges in legal sector access were you specifically trying to address when developing these programmes?

Richard Cornish (04:45)

Yeah, so, I mean, taking the sandwich placement, I mean that was really designed to address the social economic barriers to accessing legal experience by really targeting students who otherwise might have struggled to get meaningful placements.  

And part of that's been key is really about getting an inclusive pipeline of talent. And they enable students to kind of then make more informed career decisions by being exposed to government legal work. And again, often, certainly historically with such a London focus, many people thinking about a career in law never really understood the opportunities, perhaps beyond a bit of very high-level sense that you'd have to definitely go to London, for example, to work in public law.  

And we've really been trying to evolve that through these placements. For this one in particular, people get a full paralegal role. It gives people the real benefit of having practical understanding, experience of working within teams, working right at the heart of government as well.

We all know some of the stats. I was looking some of the stats up before and it's something like 20 % of lawyers attend an independent fee-paying school, but that's nearly three times the UK national average. So it's really important to help with that mobility to really open up access to people that might not have otherwise had an easy route in.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (06:06)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's all about making sure that the legal profession is truly representative of our society, isn't it? And the exposure that they must get in those placements to really exciting, cutting-edge legal work is just invaluable. You mentioned school leavers and a lot of those, the opportunities that have been available to date have really been restricted to school leavers.  

Those who are really at the point of thinking about their imminent futures in the next year or two. But now we're seeing much younger students being encouraged to consider their future careers, which is really great to see. And how important do you think it is to create that accessibility early on in people's academic studies?

Richard Cornish (06:51)

Yeah, I think it's really important. I mean, the programs kind of intentionally target school and student pupils in recognition that kind of early intervention, as you say, is really helpful and key to kind of breaking down the barriers before choices become more limited. And so the Sutton Trust internship and diversity summer scheme really build that awareness in and the confidence, especially for students that may never have had, may never have met a lawyer or seen legal work up close. And so that kind of early engagement really helps, I think with that decision making and not to kind of self-select themselves out of things because it feels so far out of reach to them.  

They haven't had conversations with lawyers or people that have had careers in the legal world. And actually, as soon as they obviously start to meet colleagues, then they start to kind of realise that actually this is more attainable and some of the roots and sharing experiences that people have gone through and what we do, for example, here.  

In addition to the kind of the formal schemes where I am in Bristol in our office here today, is a lot of less structured approaches as well as the formal scheme. So the team here work really closely just with the secondary school around the corner here in Bristol and they do various sessions kind of at points through the year with slightly younger pupils below A Level stage as well, just to kind of help them in terms of thinking about what it's like to be thinking about a legal career, what it's like to work in government, and obviously helping that broader mix about education, about workplaces as well. So the schemes are really important, but it's also about doing more beyond the schemes too.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (08:26)

Yeah, I think that's so key. I mean, one of our previous guests said, you know, students can't see what they can't see. So, you know, if you don't know anybody who's a lawyer or you've never really thought about working in government, it's not something that you would see for yourself and see for your future. And it's that self-selection, isn't it? That's sort of cutting off avenues because they don't believe that it's something that they could do. So I'm completely with you, you know, those smaller but no less important steps of just everybody in the organisation taking it upon themselves to be an ambassador almost for the roles that they do and reaching out to students from all different backgrounds to make it a much more accessible place for these students and improve their opportunities really. It won't be for everybody, but at least they will have been able to consider it.  

I just want to pick up on a couple of points that you've mentioned earlier. So one was that obviously your schemes are national now, which is great. And you are today sitting in Bristol, which shows that you're not just in London. So often I understand you run a pilot in one region before expanding into others. What have you learned about how to scale and refine social mobility programs across different regions?

Richard Cornish (09:44)

Yeah, I mean, one of the really key things is, and I'd sort of always give this advice for anyone thinking about trying to do some of these kind of things, is to kind of start small, but also to keep learning as you go. And so one of the key findings we've found with operating this in different parts of the country, of course, is actually there are differences in different parts of the country. Obvious, I know it sounds, but often sometimes when you're sort of running and designing these schemes, you sort of try and set it up in a very consistent way.  

And although we do try and do that to some sense, we also obviously know that each region, each collection of students, they're going to have a different availability of employers and a different way for us to engage with different employers. There's going to be different practical things in different areas, transport or access barriers. And that's why we've also kind of been mindful to introduce hybrid options as well. So it's not just about convenience, but sometimes some of the barriers of someone physically coming perhaps quite a long way to get into one of those even more local offices than London.

It gives more opportunity for people to get involved in some of the schemes and the other activities. Also working closely with the various universities that we've been engaged in using some of their data about their students, understanding what that tells us about some of the different issues in different places. That's also been really important as well. But I think overall it's that test and learn, starting testing, evolving. We won't always get everything right in these kind of schemes and that's okay because you need to build it. You need to take on feedback as well and develop as you go.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (11:13)

Yeah, and that tailoring, that's so important, isn't it, to make it work. Now, a few of our guests who've come on the podcast have mentioned the challenges in navigating measurements and reporting in their ESG journeys. So I'm really interested in how you measure the impact of your social mobility initiatives, both on the participants' career outcomes and also on the culture and capability of the organisation itself. So how it affects them, but also how it impacts you.

Richard Cornish (11:43)

Yeah, no, great question. And it is always that perennial challenge, data, data, data, isn't it? I mean, what we do is measure the impact. We've got centralised data-driven approaches for the internship, mentoring programs, and the outreach activity. And we use this mixture of the qualitative, quantitative data, both from a pre- and post-program survey. We assess the participant experience, the knowledge gained, the career intentions, and then the social mobility indicators, as well as kind of feedback from the volunteers as well.  

We've also done some longer term tracking to try and monitor the profession into legal careers. So also looking at people that have come into GLD, trying to understand a bit better what may have helped them earlier on. That's kind of always an evolving piece because it's not completely scientific sometimes, but that is something we've started to do more of and that's kind of helping.  

And then I think to your point about organisational culture as well, I mean, we measure the cultural capability shifts. We do a lot around our lawyer capability and then evidence of how they're growing and how they might be doing this activity and that helping to grow their capability, confidence and skills is a key thing we pick up. We also through a standardised model, evidenced through our people survey as well, looking at how some of the insights are coming out from our engagement and the way we're tackling diversity and inclusion in that way as well.  

We get some of that employer culture stuff through a sort of variety of lenses. And there's probably, you know, on both fronts, no single perfect way of doing that. But it has definitely been something we've done more of and got more richness now in the data that we've collected in the last few years.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (13:20)

Great. At TLT, we've worked with GLD on a range of social mobility initiatives already, and we're really looking forward to doing more in the future. When you partner with firms like us, what difference does it make to your impact on the ground?

Richard Cornish (13:35)

Yeah, I mean, it's great to work in partnership generally, isn't it? And I think what we also do is through that, you have a richer programme as well. So you'll have some different specialisms, different experiences that different firms will bring into some of the kind of sessions and experiences that people have.  

And also, you know, again, talking about the sort of that national dimension, of course, sort of each market is slightly different. So we'll have different strengths and specialisms from different firms in different areas. You know, again, talking from the experience here just with our recent Sutton Trust work a few weeks ago. Again, we work really well with several firms to offer sessions and to go and host. So people can come and see what it looks like to work in a government office and then see what it looks like in a legal firm as well. And that just kind of diversity of experiences is helpful beyond the substance as well.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (14:23)

Yeah, yeah. And of course, building social mobility isn't just a quick fix. It's not a case of, you know, a summer placement will solve it. So looking ahead, how does social mobility work shape the future of GLD? Not just in terms of who you recruit, but how you operate as an organisation committed to inclusion, public service and representing the communities that you serve.

Richard Cornish (14:48)

Yeah. Well, you almost said it for me there, Alex. I think they're the key points, which is absolutely, it's at the heart of what we do. It really shapes how we operate as an organisation and the values that we have as an organisation.  

But importantly, the point you touched on there, one of the really key points for us is as a government, it's not just in the legal profession, but across the civil service. We've really in the last few years and continue to have a big ambition to grow the civil service outside London and particularly often for us in GLD to grow legal careers outside London.  

And that's not a sort of a thing for convenience, actually we really want to because we want to better represent the communities that we work with, helping kind of, you know, those experiences are helping shape kind of policy or legal work right at the heart of government and having a better diverse representative workforce from different parts of the country rather than just London and the southeast is part of that.  

That more obvious kind of development in terms of broadening out both in location but also then with the different socio-economic groups, the different areas of diversity in all of those locations nationally across the country is key for so many different reasons. But it makes good business sense beyond the moral sense for it as well.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (16:06)

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what's come through in all our discussions. You know, this isn't a nice to have, it's absolutely critical for business resilience. Now, obviously GLD is quite far along on your social mobility journey. It's something you've been thinking about for some time. Some of our listeners might be wanting just to start their own social mobility outreach program. But you know, there's a lot to think about, isn't there? For teams wanting to start, just being at that sort of that initial phase, what would you suggest as a simple, realistic thing to do in the first year?

Richard Cornish (16:41)

Yeah, so I mean, it's quite daunting, isn't it, when you're sort of looking at trying to do something, particularly on a scale. And if, you know, some of the team doesn't have a huge amount of experience in doing this sort of thing, the tip would always be to kind of start small and grow from there.  

And I think colleagues here would say the first-year programme should be kind of really grounded in the research and with a clear understanding of the broader challenge that you're trying to address.  

So kind of engaging, you touched on working with firms and government, really that partnership approach is good, not just with other parts of the legal sector, but obviously with the organisations such as universities and others as well. So kind of talking to local charities, talking to social mobility focused organisations, I think is key. And those kind of insights really help inform how you develop those programmes. And I think it's about starting simple building out there from year one, just maybe starting to do a few sort of high impact initiatives, including introducing the team to some of the outreach approaches rather than your big formal schemes.  

And then you can start to build the confidence, both of your own people, but then obviously the people that you're working with. You know, I think often, like I mentioned earlier with things like the school visits or university engagement that we do sort of also quite a lot in our different locations, that kind of outreach work can be a really important first step for building confidence of your people and everyone else. And then you can kind of really use some of that experience to target what you think may be the key opportunities as you go.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (18:10)

So yeah, so a lot of information gathering, engagement, of just seeing what the lay of the land is, but also maybe empowering your people to go out and speak to schools. And that could be schools that they already have links with through their own children or through friends who have a careers day, for example, and you just put yourself forward to go and speak. So it can be quite small, not massive time commitment things, but still make a difference.

Richard Cornish (18:38)

All you might want to start with is an hour, once in a while, one or two of you going to a school, as you say, and doing a career session there. So it is that sort of start small, build up from there, and then you kind of learn more as you go as well.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (18:53)

Yeah. Are there any common misconceptions about social mobility work that you'd really like to challenge, Richard?

Richard Cornish (19:02)

I think we've touched on it a bit already, Alex. I think the key point is often I've found in different organisations as well, it's often that misconception that it's a nice to have or the outreach activities are a little bit tactical and something quite good to do but don't necessarily benefit the organisation. But they absolutely do.  

I think as long as it's part of a wider strategy and a wider cultural direction that you're trying to take the organisation, different interventions can really help the organisation and they can fundamentally address the social barriers as we touched on about really widening that access to opportunity.  

And then absolutely, there's the business case to do it beyond the moral case. And I think we've touched on this at various points in the discussion that beyond the socio-economic background, which is again, one of the things people sometimes think is the social mobility is just about that. It's not, of course, it's about the different things, education, geography, disability and all the other areas.  

It's about really helping develop access for people to understand legal careers. I think that's kind of, you need to base it on data, you need to tailor it as well to the different people that you're dealing with, but it's actually, it doesn't cost a huge amount. And sometimes people think it's going to be a big budget you need, you need thousands and thousands of pounds, as we say, actually just starting with, you know, small, well-designed actions, can really give the organisations the confidence and really make a difference to communities that you're working with.  

And the other, I think, common misconception, and I would say this across lots of different professions, is that sometimes there’s this thing of, if you support social mobility, it means lowering standards. And of course, it's not the case at all. It's about ensuring fairness. It's about transparency. It's about equitable access of opportunity, not changing what good looks like, but removing the barriers so you don't dilute talent, really expands it and you access more people.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (21:02)

Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, lowering standards is absolutely not the case, is it? I mean, you're going to improve standards by having more diverse thought in your business. It's definitely not just an optional extra or a nice to have. It's absolutely critical to ensuring the longevity and inclusivity and diversity of thought of any organisation.  

Can we just end with something really practical? If listeners could do one thing to open opportunities for young people in their communities, what would you encourage them to do?

Richard Cornish (21:37)

Yeah, I think, I mean, the classic thing, we can often kind of talk about something a lot, can't we? And I would say this as  someone that's very delivery focused as the Chief Operating Officer. But my advice would always be actually have a go and do something, try something. It won't always work perfectly when you start it. But just maybe giving up that one hour to go and do a talk somewhere, giving a commitment in your time and trying something out. That's where it starts.

And the more people that do that, of course, and the more people see people doing that, the more it starts to grow. And that's how you start to create the kind of culture in the organisation as well. Just stepping up and giving something a go, even if it's only a small amount of your time is the first key step.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (22:20)

Yeah, it's all about that sort of collective action, isn't it? And the snowball or the ripple effect of those small actions, all just sort of culminating in some really good stuff coming out of it.

Richard Cornish (22:32)

Definitely, definitely. Yeah. And we all have to therefore play our bit.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (22:36)

Absolutely, it's not one person's job. I think that's another key thing. It's really, everybody's responsibility. Everybody plays their part. It's something for everyone to do and something everyone can do, even if it's just a small, giving up an hour, as you say. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us about what GLD is doing to open up access to the legal profession. It's really uplifting to hear what's going on. And it's really clear that driving social mobility at scale takes commitment, consistency and real leadership and your perspective really brings that to life. So thank you, Richard, for joining us.

Richard Cornish (23:11)

It's been a delight. I've been really pleased to have this conversation about such an important topic. Thanks, Alex, and good to see you.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (23:19)

Great, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share. And until next time, keep driving positive change and putting ESG into action.

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