Balancing the basket: How retail can deliver on sustainability

Sophie De Salis (00:00)

And ambition is important, but I think it's the reality now of, we've got these massive targets, how are we going to do this?

Alex Holsgrove Jones (00:08)

Welcome to ESG in Action. I’m Alex Holsgrove Jones, Knowledge Partner and ESG lead for TLT, and we’re exploring how values-driven leadership, sustainable thinking and inclusive culture are transforming the business landscape. Each episode, I’m joined by a guest who drives ESG progress – from charity leaders to household brands – and they’ll be sharing the tangible impacts of ESG-led decision making.

Today I’m joined by Sophie de Salis, Sustainability Policy Advisor at the British Retail Consortium. Sophie works at the heart of sustainability policy for one of the UK’s most influential retail organisations, helping members navigate complex challenges and seize opportunities.

Sophie, thank you for joining us – it’s great to have you on the show.

Sophie De Salis (00:57)

Thanks for having me.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (01:01)

So Sophie, you're a Sustainability Policy Advisor at the British Retail Consortium. Can you just briefly describe for our listeners what your job involves day to day?

Sophie De Salis (01:11)

Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, the BRC is the leading trade association for British retail and our main two functions are supporting our membership and representing them with government and the wider industry. So my day-to-day role in terms of sustainability policy is supporting our members to understand upcoming regulation, understand how it affects them and feed that back to the government so that we have that industry voice there to kind of present those challenges and work with government to mitigate those risks and challenges.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (01:51)

Great, and what would you say are the biggest sustainability challenges that your members are dealing with right now?

Sophie De Salis (01:57)

Yeah, it's a huge challenge at the moment, not least because of the kind of political economic climate that we're dealing with. I think from first and foremost, it's the - I don't want to say onslaught, but yeah, the kind of rush of regulation that we're seeing, particularly from the EU. I think CSRD, CSDDD, a load of acronyms, EDR.

But it's also kind of creating more turbulence by the kind of rollbacks that we're seeing in the EU and then also kind of uncertainty both in the UK in terms of the direction regulation is going in, but also kind of the expectations for businesses that are being held by customers, investors and so on.

I think alongside that, it's the kind of day-to-day operations of sustainability. a lot of them have set targets and now they're having to deliver on those targets. And ambition is important, but I think it's the reality now of, we've got these massive targets, how are we going to do this?

And often the case isn't just 'the retailer needs to sort this', it's the whole systemic kind of picture. We're seeing members trying to work collaboratively to drive kind of collective action on carbon reductions and also, you know, working with their supply chain to really understand their, if we're looking at carbon, their carbon hotspots, but also kind of how they can reduce their emissions through collaboration.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (03:59)

Yeah, and it's the thing is that they're also facing a lot of other challenges, aren't they? I mean, the cost of living crisis is obviously something that can't be forgotten. So they're constantly trying to juggle those business realities with their long term commitments and striking that balance between the commercial pressures and their longer term sustainability commitments must be a real challenge for them. So it's great to hear about that collaboration, that they are working together because this is a problem that  one organisation by itself cannot solve.

Sophie De Salis (04:33)

Yeah, absolutely. I think no one's more acutely aware of the pressures customers and consumers are facing through the cost of living crisis. And the number one priority is keeping costs down for the for the customer. But it's also and I think we don't want to conflate, you know, sustainability with higher prices. But it is about how do you navigate investment in your supply chain to make those emission reductions? But also, you know, ensure that prices can keep down for the customer so yeah it's a very tricky time. But I always try to look on the positive side and you know, in great times of challenge, there's opportunity there, and there's an opportunity to be more strategic more focused on how you can make those savings and acts.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (05:32)

Yeah, and it's, I mean, it is a huge, huge challenges, but also, as you say, great opportunities. And it's always really useful to get some tangible examples of things that are actually happening and things that are, you know, examples of sustainability initiatives that have delivered a clear difference for a member. Do you have any of those examples that we can just paint a vivid picture for our listeners as to things that are working?

Sophie De Salis (06:02)

Yeah, absolutely. One great example is H&M. So I'm sure everyone's familiar with who H&M are. But in 2024, they shaved their Scope 3 emissions, CO2 emissions, by 24% compared to 2019 levels, which I think is pretty applaudable given the size of their operations. And the kind of reason for such big savings has been through changing supplier manufacturing practices and energy usage. I think they're a great example of how they worked with their supply chain and kind of assessed where the hotspots are and how they can change behaviour within their supply chain to then improve their kind of overall emissions profile. I think H&M is also a great example of the investment they've done into circular business models. You'll probably be aware that they have take back schemes, they offer rental, and they've been investing a lot into Sellpy, which is the retail platform. I don't think it's available in the UK, but it is in Sweden for sure. And they've done all this to kind of also engage the consumer on sustainability and actually how there's more options for shopping with H&M than just your kind of traditional experience and you can enjoy it through returning items or open take back schemes or renting.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (07:53)

Yeah, and that's such a good... because the thing about retail  is that the model almost needs to change and H&M have shown how the innovative thinking can really give results because really, retailers are trying to sell as many things as they can, which directly goes against the sustainability policy and you know, your thinking which is use as little as you can. So so trying to sort of bring those ideas together.

An organisation like H&M and the examples you've given shown that you just need to think a little bit differently, and the model of retail that we've had to date doesn't need to be the model going forward. So I think it's great to share those examples. Do you know if, you know, because obviously the supply chain for retailers, there's going to be a lot of similar organisations in the supply chain. So an organisation with a bit of clout like H&M doing it will will surely filter through to other maybe smaller organisations that can't, that don't have so much, sort of pressure to put on their supply chain.

Sophie De Salis (09:00)

Yeah, absolutely. So H&M actually were key partners in our fashion sustainability summit that we hosted last year or for the second time, the second year in a row. And the reason that they wanted to sponsor that event was to demonstrate that firstly it can be done, but also share those learnings. And that's what the BRC and also, you know, with other initiatives, such as WRAP or

the, what they called, a Cascale on the fashion side is really to kind of promote the actions of those larger organisations who have the capacity and the funding to lead and then demonstrate it can be done and share those learnings with those organisations that are maybe followers in this case.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (09:56)

It just really shows the power of collaboration and collective action, doesn't it? And that that everybody needs to come together to take us forward. And it's not, whilst obviously they are competitors, they see that the way forward is is the only way that we can sustainably carry on in the world. So looking ahead, the pace of change isn't flowing and businesses are having to plan well in advance.

What is one ESG related change that you're actively preparing for in the retail sector? And what are you doing now? What's coming in the pipeline?

Sophie De Salis (10:33)

Yeah, so the BRC has been a key player in the space, in the sustainability space for about 10 years now. And it started with our Better Retail Better World campaign, and that fed into the establishment of our Climate Action Roadmap, which we launched in 2020. The roadmap is still going, but we realized that we can't just focus on climate.

There's another addition to the mix, which is nature and biodiversity loss. And we've been really keen to bring nature and biodiversity loss into the conversation, because it started, but it's kind of that elephant in the room, because a lot of climate problems are nature-based solutions and you know, when we're looking at deforestation, for example, huge habitats are being lost. Or if you're looking at agriculture, water usage is, yeah, is a huge problem for soil health and can really degrade the soil and then lead to less profitable businesses because you don't have the same supply chain resilience. So the nature and biodiversity has been our key focus for this year and hopefully for the next years to come.

And through that we launched our nature and biodiversity plan, also known as our nature positive plan, which we've recently launched and we are sharing with our members to get them started on nature and biodiversity and get them to kind of think how they can attack the two issues of climate change and nature and biodiversity loss together.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (12:35)

And when you're speaking to members about this and launching these kinds of things, do you frame it in the way of supply chain resilience so that they immediately understand the relevance to them? Because sometimes nature and biodiversity loss can seem a bit of a nebulous term, you know, does it apply to my business? Whereas supply chain resilience, if you have no supplier, you have no business, or if the suppliers, their supply production is reduced because of a climate event or nature and biodiversity loss, then the costs go up obviously. You can't because of climate incidents, you can't transport, you can't manufacture, then it all links into whether or not you have a viable business. And I think sometimes it's easier for people to understand supply chain resilience than climate or nature and biodiversity loss. Do you find the same with your membership?

Sophie De Salis (13:36)

Yeah, absolutely. And the language I feel in the last year or two, kind of going back to that kind of political economic climate that's affecting the way particularly sustainability professionals are talking about sustainability is influencing how we talk about it at the BRC. And that is switching from a, I think, language such as like, you know, biodiversity loss, kind of improved soil health, etc.

To actually that supply chain resilience and business resilience. Because if you think actually how investors think as well who are investing in all these retailers, it's about long-term return on investment. And if your business model isn't secure or resilient to the effects of climate change, but also nature and biodiversity loss, then you're not going to have a good, well, profit is going to be at risk.. So for us, it's yeah, it's about talking about how this will affect your business and, future proof your business to ensure you're here in the next 10, 20 years, 100 years, if you want to think long term.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (15:01)

Yeah, absolutely. So beyond policies and strategies, there's obviously the human side of all this and, and it would be really good to get your view on where things are heading. So when you think about the next few years, what worries you most? And on the flip side, what gives you most cause for optimism?

Sophie De Salis (15:22)

I think in the coming years, water is going to be a huge topic. I think it's also something that we are looking at it from kind of both a climate and nature perspective, because it doesn't necessarily sit neatly in both, because it's kind of that. So I think as a citizen,

Alex Holsgrove Jones (15:41)

It's essential for both, isn't it?

Sophie De Salis (15:48)

that is something that I'm maybe worried about in the future. And also, you know, you say human element, but how it affects people working in the supply chain and how does access to water impact workers? I think that's it's a kind of ⁓ there in my head. But I think what gives me optimism is the amount of work that is continuing to go on in the space.

Regardless of political and economic changes, there is an understanding that sustainability isn't a topic that's going away and it is something that will lead to a resilient and successful business. So I think that's what gives me hope is that there is momentum there. It might not be as visible as it used to be, but there is that kind of drive and passion to deliver change. I, with my glass half full, we will get there.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (16:51)

That's great. Thanks, Sophie. Now, can we finish on something practical for our listeners? So if you could ask them to do just one thing to make the world more sustainable, what would you choose?

Sophie De Salis (17:04)

It's a good question and I was thinking about it on myself and I think as a sustainability professional as well, you put a lot of pressure on yourself to be perfect. And I think my ask of everyone would be not to be perfect, but just to try.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (17:21)

Do something rather than nothing.

Sophie De Salis (17:22)

Exactly. And it's the small actions that can really make a change, whether that be reducing your meat consumption, reducing your dairy consumption, getting the train instead of getting a plane to wherever you're going, probably in Europe, knowing the rail networks! But I would say it's just kind of not trying to chew the, what's the phrase, eat the whole cake at once.

Probably not the right one! But yeah, taking bite-sized steps can really get you on your journey to make tangible change.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (18:01)

Yeah, because the collective impact of those small actions is actually really huge, isn't it? Yeah, that's been so interesting talking to you, Sophie. Thank you so much for joining me today. For our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share and until next time, keep driving positive change and putting ESG into action. Thanks,

Sophie De Salis (18:08)

Exactly. Thanks Alex.

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