ESG in Action: Pro bono week special: How do we improve access to justice?

Emily Sherratt (00:01)

It's the 25th anniversary, so we want it to feel like a turning point, like what is pro bono doing? What should it look like and what will it look like? And how do we be pragmatic about that?

Alex Holsgrove Jones (00:14)

Welcome to ESG in Action's Pro Bono Week Special. I'm Alex Holsgrove Jones, Knowledge Partner and ESG Lead at TLT, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Emily Sherratt, Project Director at the National Pro Bono Centre. Thank you for joining me on the show.

Emily Sherratt (00:30)

Thank you for having me, it's so good to be here.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (00:34)

So, this year marks the 25th anniversary of Pro Bono Week, running from the 2nd to the 6th of November. So, for our listeners that don't know of Pro Bono Week or the National Pro Bono Centre, can you share a little bit about what you do?

Emily Sherratt (00:50)

Yeah, yeah. So, the National Pro Bono Center gives infrastructure support to the sector. Our main goal is to encourage and enable pro bono work and that's kind of through either direct delivery, support services, or a lot of what we do is comms as well.

Pro Bono Week is a huge part of what we do. We work with the steering group that's made up of a range of pro bono organisations across the sector. They set the direction and the themes, and we think about what we're trying to do for this year. And then we're sort of tasked on the ground with how do we make that happen? And yeah, how do we do the comms? How do we do all the small details? Event platform, badges, comms, LinkedIn, making sure that there's bums on seats, things like that. So that's a huge part of what we're doing, it feels like that's all I'm thinking about, at least at the moment.  

But a large part of what we do as well is just leveraging our network. We do a lot of introductions, and I joke all the time that my job isn't to know things, but it's to know who knows. And I feel like I have all these lovely conversations and I go, that's really interesting, go and talk to somebody else over there and they go and have a lovely conversation. I just love working with so many incredibly committed lawyers. They're often doing great things, well they're all doing great things and they're creating change, but they're often doing it alongside whatever it is their day job is. So I feel really privileged to sort of be led by what they're trying to do and what they're trying to change and help them do it on the ground.  

So yeah, we're sort of an infrastructure organization rather than having direct casework, but we're really just trying to support those charities, firms, chambers, initiatives, special interest groups, anything like that to sort of support with pro bono and access to justice.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (02:31)

Yeah, that's really, really interesting. So going back to the themes, the themes for this year's Pro Bono Week are Celebrate a Tradition, Inspire Action and Shape the Future. Why pick those themes for this year? What do you think is so pertinent about them today?

Emily Sherratt (02:49)

Well, I joke every year that we have to make themes that are broad enough to give people freedom to put on events and to make it so that if you're a niche charity in one area, you can put on an event. If you're really broad charity or if you're a firm and you have loads of things going on, you can host an event and it makes sense. But there's enough direction that you can hang discussions and, you know, focuses off it.  

Celebrate Tradition is part of our themes this year because we're launching the ongoing Living History of Pro Bono exhibition. It's going to be online. We are launching it in person in Parliament, but it's mainly an online website, which I think will be live by the time this goes out, to talk about what is the history of pro bono? Where did it start? And sort of what is it? What has it become now? And so, we've gone out to the sector, and we will continue to, I'm sure that there'll be loads of things that have missed and people will see this exhibition and go, you've not told this brilliant story. So, it's a never-ending project. But the whole narrative is about that tradition of lawyers volunteering their skills to support access to justice.  

In the 1300s, lawyers were doing this, or judges were asking lawyers to represent this person for free, and things like that. So, it's been really interesting to see just that thread throughout of volunteering your time and recognizing that privilege that comes with having the skills that lawyers have.  

Inspire Action, probably the most classic pro bono week theme. I mean, it's ultimately a campaign, so you want to have a call to action. You want to have that narrative about what next? What do we want people to do? You don't just want people to go to an event and say, that was lovely and then move on. So that's the sort of like what next?  

And then Shaping the Future is a bit of a twofold one really. It's my favourite part of the themes this year. Because we're talking about a changing legal landscape, particularly AI is a huge topic at the moment. It's not going anywhere. Other legal tech tools as well. And Pro Bono is not alone in wanting to make sure that we're not left behind. And what's really interesting with pro bono is that you've kind of got these charities that are working on quite difficult systems because they don't have the funding. And they've also got these amazing firms that have got the best high-tech stuff that you can get. And then, you know, we're kind of working in the middle of how, how can we bring that together? There's appetite on both sides, but it's how do we make that work for everybody?  

It's also about shaping what pro bono looks like for the next generation of lawyers that they're inheriting a fairly volatile profession in some ways on the one hand, they're worried about being replaced by AI and we're to do lot of work around how, how can we train the next generation of lawyers and how do we make them feel valued? Because if they are going to be the next generation, they are going to be leading the law at some point. There are changes to the way people qualify, many in social welfare areas don't think the exams reflect what they do every day, and there's increasing pay gaps as well between if you're working in legal aid, and if you're working commercial work.  

And then throughout all of that, you then also get we're inheriting clients who are increasingly vulnerable, increasingly in need of legal assistance and unable to afford the level of support they need. And so that changing legal landscape piece is quite multifaceted. There's quite a lot of moving parts to it. And so, we kind of wanted to give enough freedom for discussions around Pro Bono week to be able to talk about one, two, many of those sort of angles and the way of thinking about it, really.  

And it's quite a lot to fit into a few words, but it's an anniversary year. It's the 25th anniversary. So we want it to feel like a turning point. Like what is pro bono doing? What should it look like and what will it look like? And how do we be pragmatic about that? So, I'm looking forward to hearing afterwards. We've got a brilliant student council and we send them out to all events in Pro Bono week and they write up in a summary of what was discussed and what were the themes and then we do an analysis of every event. So yeah, that'll be a watch this space because that won't be ready until probably the of the year, but it will be really interesting to see what people are saying.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (06:56)

It will be hugely interesting because as you say, there is a massive amount of change going on in the legal profession and how that can really benefit pro bono is something that hopefully will come out of those discussions. Now, you mentioned, Emily, that it's part of a lawyer's professional responsibility to do pro bono. And I just wanted to pick that a little bit. Are you able to share any examples that have resonated with you of the difference that pro bono can make and that could be for individuals, communities or wider society? I'm sure you have a huge number of examples, but are there any things that have really resonated with you over the years?

Emily Sherratt (07:35)

Yeah, well it's, I think about it in the exact same way when we're sort of talking about impact measuring and like, how do we articulate that value that people are doing? It is like, what's the value to the lawyer? It's developing new skills, it's getting a sense of purpose and fulfilment. It's making a difference for a client that otherwise wouldn't have access to justice and sort of helping with those skills in one, two, many ways.  

And the importance of wider society as well, we need to safeguard the reputation of the profession. It's really important. It's part of everybody's duty once they're qualified and before that as well. And one way to do that is by recognizing the privilege that comes with having the skills that a solicitor, barrister, chartered legal exec, etc, has.  

There's using commercial skills to support charities. Could they support with governance? Could they support with property issue, a lease, employment, HR? That's really easily transferable skills. But also, there's the skills that a lawyer has, and we call it a little bit like being a general practitioner. And could you actually just help someone draft a witness statement and help them articulate their story? Could you help them go through and find the most important evidence that they've got and help support that point of view? You know, that's the lawyer. Those are the inherent legal lawyer-y skills. Is there research to support wider policy initiatives? I mean, there's been a great example between the Public Law Project, Field Fisher and Stephen Tim's MP office. That sort of policy piece that they were doing pro bono over a few years led to a new law center in Newham. And that's just incredible because we're actually in the world, we're in, we're looking at things closing, but to see something open up, it's just amazing. And that was after a lot of support to look at researching legal needs availability. How can we really help this community?  

And then strategic litigation work as well, like one thing I always talk about is Christian Weaver’s inquest work. So he helped create Awaab’s Law - it's relevant to all renters across England and Wales in ensuring their safety, and that mould is dealt with in a timely matter. I think I read recently that that's not just social homes as well, but it's going to be in for private landlords as well. So, that's just an example of how one pro bono case can impact a huge cohort of people, all renters in England and Wales.  

And so, there's so many brilliant examples because I always say pro bono is a like a fruit salad, there's so many different ways that you can do it, enjoy it, make a difference, you know, just what works for one person, one firm, one charity, one client isn't going to work for another. But that's almost the beauty of it because you can fit it to you, you can fit it to your organization, you can fit it to the client, that kind of thing. So, I mean, could go on all day, but those are the examples that come to my head at least.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (10:28)

Yeah, and we, I mean, you've mentioned already that it's a really good way for lawyers to expand their skills and you know, their worldview really. You can get something different from pro bono. If you are an aspiring lawyer and you want to get involved in pro bono initiatives, perhaps you're not yet at a law firm that has a pro bono program. How would you go about it, Emily?

Emily Sherratt (10:55)

That's a tricky one, because it depends where they're at and what stage they're in. I'll say, I would say to any student, make sure that you graduate with some pro bono experience. Whether it's through, your SQE training provider, BPTC training partner, things like that. Is it through your university? Most universities, I think maybe even all now, all law departments will have a pro bono program, and that's probably the mantra that I give to any student ever is to make sure that before you graduate, you have spoken to a real client and you have you have managed a case in some capacity. Firms now have ring fenced pro bono hours, which can count and I would always encourage young lawyers if they're in a firm to make use of that. If it's not there, look for allies within your network, you never know what opportunities can come with that. The Free Representation Unit do amazing work with budding lawyers, they have training sessions throughout the year to bring into I think welfare benefits and employment tribunals and that gives young people great representation experience that they wouldn't maybe otherwise have. But there's also a range of frontline agencies, law centres that are really receptive to volunteers, but also being a bit more creative about how you could be helpful. You don't just have to look at legal organisations. I think there's a lot of merit in finding what is it, for a young person, that you're really passionate about, and working for a charity and saying, how can I help you? Could you work for a women's domestic abuse charity? It is legal, but it's also not. And could you use some research skills? Could you help supporting people through a court experience? It's kind of a little bit open-ended about do they need and what do you need? And you can say to them that I'm really trying to be a lawyer, I really want to help, I really want to make a difference. Is there something that we could do that I could be helpful to you for?  

And it is a challenging one as well, especially for younger lawyers now. It's the cost of living and things like that, you need to fit in volunteering alongside making it work, doing your exams. It's really tricky out there. And I think firms are and should be alive to that extra challenge that I think isn't really going anywhere.  

And a lot of what we do as well is trying to work with universities to embed pro bono within their curriculum. So, it's within the hours that the students have agreed to do so that we don't have the students and cohorts that can access pro bono, and the students that can't because they need to be working or whatever. Yeah, it needs to be an accessible thing. So almost like an answer, but it's not an answer because you could do it in so many different ways.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (13:21)

I think that's a real benefit though, isn't it? That it can be done in so many different ways. That might be a one-off pro bono case, it might be a legal clinic that you're helping with. Just going into a little bit more detail on collaboration, Emily, because the biggest social challenges cannot be tackled by one organisation alone. And that is going to be the case with many of the things that come through pro bono. Where do you see the biggest opportunities for collaboration across firms, in-house teams, charities, universities, and the wider legal profession to improve access to justice?

Emily Sherratt (13:59)

Yeah, well, we, we definitely can't do it alone. We would never want to be able to do it alone. But part of the beauty of the pro bono sector is that no one owns it. It's across the legal sector and there isn't one size that fits all, there isn't one way to do it. And I think actually, even though it can sometimes mean the definitions and things like that can mean that things to different people, there is that beauty of it that you can make it work for you.  

But I think the biggest opportunity to work together is when we really listen to what the needs are and be led by those voices. So likely frontline community organizations that are working with the most vulnerable people, we need to listen to them and see what their needs are. Then look at what the legal profession can offer and see what the overlaps are and marrying that up. Because think when you're trying to collaborate, you really need to think about how is this the best use of our time, our resources? It can be really distressing for clients. So, we need to make that whole process really seamless. I think just the frontline community organizations that I work with are just the most incredible, incredible organizations. And I think when we listen to them, that's when the best outcomes can come, really.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (15:14)

Yeah, absolutely. So bringing it back to law firms now, what can firms do to better embed and encourage pro bono? So when we think about the S, or the social, in ESG and responsible business more broadly, where do you see pro bono fitting into that?

Emily Sherratt (15:34)

Well, pro bono is really strongly in that, the S, of ESG. And I know that clients are asking, they are asking that of their Partners, of their law firm partners that they work with. I often talk to firms who email us and say, you know, our clients are starting to ask us about what pro bono we're doing, and we're not doing something, what do we do? And we've actually got an event during Pro Bono week to support with that. How do you start your Pro Bono journey?

I do think we are getting to a point where there's many firms that are really established and they know what they're doing. But there's actually also a lot of firms that are wanting to start, and we need to be open to supporting them to do that. It's going beyond donating to the food bank and gardening for a local organization. I love that people like that completely different to the day job, and that's great. But firms have extremely skilled professionals, they can be used in a variety of ways. And it's also where you're embedding pro bono.

It's not just your lawyers either, you have marketing teams. Could your reception staff support with a charity with some admin? It's not just about your lawyers. It's about everyone in your team. Do you have a facilities manager that could just really go and have a look at someone else's facilities for a couple of hours? Do you have an events people and they could help you with an event? So that's just more broadly, how could you embed that in your firm is how could everybody in the firm do some pro bono?  

It takes time and commitment, and that time and commitment does need to come from the top, I think, if you really want to embed it, that S in ESG. It can look like having targets, so using some of your billable hours towards pro bono. I think there's a target with the collaborative plan of about 25 hours of pro bono. And that's a great target to have. It enables you to be able to make a difference but spend it in a range of different ways. Discussing pro bono contribution and annual reviews for staff. So that that's a culture of, well, when it's in your annual review, let's talk about what pro bono you did and what you got out of it. Because lots of people, especially in the younger cohorts, might have got leadership opportunities or advocacy opportunities they wouldn't have already had. Establishing ongoing partnerships which give time and financial contributions. That ensures well-resourced programs and that's really embedded as well. You want to make sure that there's a really good strong relationship with the charities you're working with.  

Pro bono also costs money to charities. They have to find the clients, they have to work with them, they have to get it to a point where it can be a pro bono case. What you don't want, I think, with firms is to take capacity away from the charities - you only want to be adding to what they're doing.

And the last thing is secondments - that's a really big chunk of what a firm could do. Charities love the apprentices or trainees to come and have young, bright lawyers in their firm for, you know, three, four, five, six months. I know that there's some charities that get that from some of the city firms and the charities just think it's the most incredible offering, and they love working with them. So, those are just a few ways to do it, and again, it's really difficult because not one size fits all and any advice I would give to one firm would probably be different to another firm. But I think one thing that every firm could do is to sign the Law Society's Pro Bono Charter. It's free and then you get support from Val, who's, at the Law Society, their Pro Bono and PLE Policy Advisor. And that's a really clear way to show that you are supportive of the S in ESG.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (19:08)

Thanks Emily, you've covered such a lot there and I think that it seems to be, you know, moving from pro bono and the skilled volunteering that those who are not lawyers within your organization, but may be able to provide their skills to charities. So that could be Marketing, IT, BD, whatever. Getting that switch from it being a nice to have add-on, to it being the expectation and the norm, and that culture shift is really the key to kind of moving you forward in getting it to be the expectation of all colleagues that this is what we do here at your organisation. And that takes time, doesn't it? It's not something that can be done overnight. So, Emily, I'm just conscious of time and I've still got a few things that I'd like to ask you about.  

Firstly, if we were recording this podcast for the 50th anniversary of Pro Bono Week, what would you like to have changed between now and then, either about access to justice, or the way the legal profession delivers pro bono, or anything else you'd like to see switch in 25 years going forward?

Emily Sherratt (20:18)

That's a big question. I really hope by then we have a stronger civil justice system generally. A lot of people already know their rights. Lots of people don't, but lots of people do. And they can't realise them for a range of reasons. It's all well and good, the legal profession doing their bit to support access to justice. But there also needs to be a functioning civil justice system alongside that. And we can't do that alone and we can't do it overnight.  

But on a more positive note, I think we'll see that next generation lawyers, so Gen Z, Gen Alpha, we'll see them being more socially conscious. We talked at the start about, generally speaking, all the Uni's will do some pro bono work. I think they'll grow up with a strong pro bono ethos and it takes time, but we now have support from partners and firms who think pro bono work is really important.  

That's taken time. That's probably taken 25 years and more of Pro Bono week to happen to get to that point. So, we can see it kind of working from the top down and the bottom up. So yeah, I think those are the main hopes that I have for 25 years' time. It'll be interesting to go back on this podcast and see, you know, did that happen? Did this happen? Be interesting.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (21:29)

Absolutely. So just to finish, Emily, obviously we've talked about one of the themes being to inspire action. And one of the things you'd like people to do in Pro Bono Week is to go away with something they'll do in the future, rather than just leave the event thinking it was a nice thing to go to but then forget about it. On that theme of inspiring action for the future, what's one thing our listeners could do during Pro Bono Week that would genuinely make a difference?

Emily Sherratt (22:02)

It's hard for one thing, but I think talk to a colleague and ask about what pro bono they've done, and what's next. And if there isn't anything next or if they've not done it, come up with a plan together to change something, change that. What are you going to do? The whole point of Pro Bono Week is to support pro bono and to make it happen. So, the best one thing you could do as a listener is to make that happen. What are you going to do after this?

Alex Holsgrove Jones (22:26)

That's a great one, I love it. Ask a colleague what they've done or what they're going to do and then you know take some action together. If everybody did that how much more pro bono work would be done in the weeks following pro bono week?

Emily Sherratt (22:40)

Yeah, exactly - and in the run-up to Christmas.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (22:43)

Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining me on this episode, Emily. As we've discussed, Pro Bono is an absolutely fantastic example of ESG in action, demonstrating how legal expertise can create meaningful social impact, support communities, and improve access to justice. So thank you so much for joining me.

Emily Sherratt (23:04)

Thank you so much for having me.

Alex Holsgrove Jones (23:06)

And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share. And until next time, keep driving positive change and putting ESG into action.